Episode Summary

In this podcast with John-Michael Keyes from the I Love U Guys foundation, we talk about school safety and violent event incident management.

Episode Notes

Episode 40: SSAVEIM

In this podcast with John-Michael Keyes from the I Love U Guys foundation, we talk about school safety and violent event incident management.

Bill Godfrey:

Welcome to the Active Shooter Incident Management podcast. Thank you for being with us today. We have a special guest today. I'm excited to welcome back to the fold John-Michael Keyes with the "I Love U Guys" Foundation. John-Michael, thanks for taking the time to join us on the podcast today.

John-Michael Keyes:

Oh, thanks for the opportunity, Bill. I always look forward to conversations with you.

Bill Godfrey:

It is so exciting to have you back. We got some really, really great comments about the last series you and I did, which ironically, we had recorded just before COVID shut everything down.

We'll talk a little bit more about that, but I know I'm catching you literally after you've just finished the last day of your briefings. How did it go? Well, you know what? Tell everybody what the briefings were about. I'm anxious to hear how it went.

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. We started, I think almost 10 years ago now, holding an annual conference. We did it in the summertime. For the first several years, we held the conference at Columbine High School. Part of my goal with that was a special ... Not everyone can do that, and so we were delighted that Jefferson County School District and Columbine let us use the school to conduct a school safety conference.

We kind of outgrew the auditorium there. It's an unusual conference, because we get a lot of first-person accounts. It feels a little different than many of the safety conferences you may have attended.

Bill Godfrey:

John-Michael, I'm curious. On the briefings, is there one highlight that really sticks out in your mind that was very moving or thoughtful or meaningful moving forward?

John-Michael Keyes:

Absolutely. Oddly enough, it's a repeat. Carly Posey is the mission director of the “I Love U Guys” Foundation. Her family story is both difficult and inspiring. She had two kids at Sandy Hook who survived the shooting. The story of the aftermath and their journey, and dealing with active killer event survivors is truly inspirational. I've seen it a half a dozen times. Even seeing it again yesterday, it gets me. Certainly, the virtual audience was moved dramatically by Carly's presentation.

Bill Godfrey:

I can only imagine it would be impossible not to be moved. I've seen you do yours, I've lost count, but it's well over a dozen times. I don't know how you get through ... I can't get through it with dry eyes. It just doesn't work for me. It's always a very emotional and moving topic.

Any highlights that you've got planned for the next set of briefings, which is what the mini set in the winter? Am I remembering that right?

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. We started doing a winter briefing. It was a unique venue. Jefferson County School District in Colorado has 160 schools. The safety and security director there, John MacDonald, did something that I've not seen anywhere else in the country. He successfully stole an elementary school. He convinced the school district to turn the power on for a weekend of training. Having that physical school facility is essential in training for active killer events. He just forgot to have them turn the power off.

Bill Godfrey:

Conveniently forgot, right? Yeah.

John-Michael Keyes:

Actually, as the school district saw the benefit of it, they began training, not just Jefferson County public safety, but law enforcement, fire and EMS from around the state and then the country. Navy SEAL team has been there.

They secured long-term funding, and it got rechristened the Frank DeAngelis Center for Community Safety. What was Martensen Elementary is now a full-on public safety training venue. I think last year, I looked pre-COVID, they had something like 70 different agencies doing nearly 200 days of training in that building.

Bill Godfrey:

That's a lot. That's the kind of stuff that really, really makes a difference, I know. Wow. Fantastic stuff. Well, hey, congratulations on getting the briefings done. I'm really happy that things went well, especially with the virtual challenges. But you and I are here to talk about a new program that we're doing together called SSAVEIM, School Safety and Violent Event Incident Management. You want to tell the group, tell the audience what this is about?

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. We developed the Standard Reunification Method in 2012. It was based on practices that we saw around the country in how districts could successfully reunify students with parents, with accountability, and accommodating for psychological first aid. It started gaining some traction. In 2016, we released version two.

It was some time after that, when I saw a training of the Active Shooter Incident Management, ASIM, and the Counterstrike method of functional exercise in a classroom environment. It was fascinating to me. You and I got to talking, and I said, "Wouldn't it be cool if we did something like this for reunification?" I'm pretty sure it was during dinner, and perhaps a drink, because you agreed.

Bill Godfrey:

It's funny how those things ... Yeah. For the audience, if you ever end up at dinner with John-Michael, watch out. It comes fast and furious. Yeah.

But I think it was a really great thing. We did it in a couple stages. As you mentioned, we first modified the Counterstrike training system to support being able to do full functional reunifications with students, and the paperwork, and the attendants, and the teachers, and the role players, and the responders and everything else.

We began working that into the course that we do, our ASIM courses. We've got a suite of those Active Shooter Incident Management courses. We also built that into our simulation system that we use on the road for doing the advanced class. There's 3D first-person point-of-view system we can use for doing reunification, and then also the Counterstrike.

It wasn't very long after that that you and I were talking again. I believe the usual dinner setting was where it occurred. We started talking about ... I think I was asking you some questions. We were having some dialogue about some challenges that we were hitting in the reunification when we were running these exercises in these scenarios. Do you remember that?

John-Michael Keyes:

Absolutely. That was one of the things that...Your professional career, Bill, that fire chief occasionally comes out, and seasoned incident management, that practical crisis management where your boots-on-the-ground experience over your career, you pointed out some weaknesses in our methods.

I was delighted. The foundation is committed to constantly evaluating and evolving. You proposed some modifications to the practices that we've incorporated in version three of the Standard Reunification Method. That's going to be officially published here in the clear near future.

Bill Godfrey:

You're not getting away with clear near future. No, no, no, no. We're pinning down a date. Next week, right?

John-Michael Keyes:

Say again.

Bill Godfrey:

I said next week, right?

John-Michael Keyes:

It does have a publication date.

Bill Godfrey:

Good.

John-Michael Keyes:

We've got it ready to go on the website.

Bill Godfrey:

Fantastic.

John-Michael Keyes:

We're excited about that.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, as are we.

John-Michael Keyes:

The changes were simple and deliberate, and made the process better. The ability to incorporate that into SSAVEIM, and some of the joint development then in the setup and the execution of that, has, A, been entertaining, but, B, I'm really excited about the product.

Bill Godfrey:

Oh yeah, me too. I cannot wait to see this roll out in a large scale way. We actually did the pilot delivery right as COVID was cranking up, and obviously, had to set everything aside. Now, we're back to doing face-to-face stuff, and so we're beginning to ramp this back up, and beginning this push, which is why you and I both wanted to talk about it.

I think that the interesting thing here is the natural evolution. As you mentioned, it's very important to you and the foundation to constantly revisit and say, "Okay. What can be better? What can be better? Is there a better way? Has things changed? What have we learned?"

That's the same way that our group approaches the Active Shooter Incident Management. Threats don't stay the same. Things change over time. Things evolve. You have to look at what have we learned, what are the new practices.

You were so gracious in accepting some of the feedback, and then we truly worked together on those changes and those edits. That led to the conversation about, "Hey, what do you think about putting together, not just a hands-on class, but a hands-on class that takes school people," so school administrators, teachers, security personnel, "and puts them in the room for the same training with our first responders," police, fire, and EMS, "so that they're learning together, and we're doing these functional hands-on exercises together?"

That's how SSAVEIM got born and came together. SSAVEIM basically has three modules to it. The first module is the Standard Response Protocol. John-Michael, you want to recap real quickly for everybody what the SRP levels are?

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. When we started down this path, what we saw was there wasn't common language between students, staff and first responders in a variety of crisis. A lot of schools were still using codes or response levels. We're pretty committed to the fact that codes don't work in a crisis. We found some specific language: lockout, lockdown, evacuate and shelter. Those were the initial four actions of the Standard Response Protocol.

Well, we introduced that in 2009, and then iterated and iterated. Today, the Standard Response Protocol 2021 is five actions. We added another action: hold in your classroom or area, and we changed the term lockout to the term secure. We did that to avoid confusion and increase precision.

It doesn't sound like a big deal, changing one word. In all honesty, I think the foundation staff had bigger heartburn than the rest of the world, because everyone else said, Oh, finally," rather than complaining.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah, yeah. But it is a lot of work.

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah, it is a lot of work and seems to be everywhere. But for SRP 2021, the five actions are hold, secure, lockdown, evacuate and shelter. We released that, gosh, it's COVID time, so somewhere before or after COVID started. The programs are being used, in our estimation, in over 30,000 schools, districts, departments, and agencies around the country.

You touched on the premise. The premise is that we need to get school folks, and administrators, and public safety all working together, all on the same page. To bring SRP into the SSAVEIM training, absolutely essential. To bring the Standard Reunification Method where, once again, we need the educators, we need public safety, we need administration, and we need to get the parents in the mix sometimes too.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. The SSAVEIM class is three modules. We start off module one is the Standard Response Protocol. We do a very brief lecture, if you will, on that. Then we get everybody up around the Counterstrike boards, and we give them a scenario. The public safety responders stand back. The school folks are up around the board. We say, "Okay, here's the scenario."

Obviously, this scenario is based around a typical type of threat. Then the school folks have to decide what is the appropriate response to that. Is it going to be to secure the campus, or is it a lockdown? Then they put the campus in that condition. So they're actually interacting with the chips on the board and other things to collect up the students, put the campus into the appropriate condition. Then we do a timeout.

So we run it. It happens real fast. A bunch of hands reaching in and grabbing, and moving kids around, and getting classrooms locked, and all that kind of stuff. Then we take a pause.

Then we come back for module two. Now, module two is ASIM the Active Shooter Incident Management checklist, where it is ... We go through that for the public safety responders, but also for the school people to understand what all has to happen on the public safety response side, and the criticality of the sequencing of some of that, and how that matters.

We run through that relatively short lecture, get everybody back up, back over to the board, where it's in the condition where they left it earlier. So we're going to pick it right back up where we left off. But now, the public safety people are coming up around the board, and the school people are looking a little more at that transition that happens in real life. "Okay. We've placed our campus in lockdown. Here come law enforcement. We see fire and EMS piling up in the parking lot. What's this going to look like? How's this going to work?"

So then that exercise unfolds, with public safety leading that part of it through the neutralization of the threat, which may mean taking the threat down or the threat leaves the campus, whatever the scenario calls for. Then the rescue and transport of those that are injured. We run that scenario until the last patient is transported. Then we call a timeout.

Then we go back for the third and final module, which you've already alluded to John-Michael, which is the Standard Reunification Method, where we talk about the importance of going through that process. You want to highlight a little bit about that?

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. What we've seen in the past is school districts often have a what we call Plan B regarding reunification. Plan B is to wing it. Okay? It doesn't happen often enough, but when it does happen, it's important that we do it well, that we account for students and staff, that we accommodate any potential psychological first aid, and that there's a process in place that manages the experience of parents as they're effectively standing in line waiting to get their kid.

The Standard Reunification Method is based on practices that are proven in the field in accomplishing those goals of managing parents expectations and experience while waiting to get the kids, methods to accelerate that process and still accommodate for any trauma demands that might be there.

We've got paper versions of it, and a number of software vendors have incorporated this into an automated system where we can leverage some of the computer system technology that exists.

But the whole point is let's get a parent back with a student with accountability, and let's have a process to attempt to quickly identify any missing students, and a mechanism to provide support for parents if students are missing.

Bill Godfrey:

Spot on. So we do that lecture, which, again, doesn't take a long time. It's fairly brief and to the point. Then we get everybody back up over to the boards. This is where it really starts to get interesting, because now, for the first time, you've got public safety, who is controlling the campus ...

Sometimes that's a little bit of a shock to some school folks to realize that law enforcement has got their campus secured, and you're not just going to pop your head out of a classroom and go walking down the hallway, that there's a series of events that has to unfold here.

One of the first challenges is just trying to get everybody to understand who is responsible for what, and how to self-organize themselves into the incident management system that is going to unfold this thing the rest of the way. That's an interesting dialogue that happens right off the bat is to get people in those roles, and then figure out exactly what you're going to do.

It's always fascinating to me to watch, John-Michael. I don't know if this has been your experience too. You sit and you listen to the lecture, and you look at people's faces, and they're nodding their heads. You know, intellectually, they get it. But then 10 minutes later, when they get up and try to put hands on, they suddenly have a whole bunch of questions that just things weren't necessarily that clear to them.

So as we begin to work through the process, it seems like the second problem that comes up is the school's plan to reunify is to use some part of their existing campus, the gym or their ball field, at which point, law enforcement looks at them, goes, "Yeah, no. We're not doing that."

"It's a crime scene. We're not having the parents come here. We can't manage that, secure the ..." So all of a sudden, now, you're talking about an offsite reunification, it seems to me, about half the time. What's been your experience on that? On the plans that you've seen, is about half right, that think they're going to use their own campus?

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. It's a result of principals, at the school level, are kings or queens of their domain. They live in that environment, where that's the case all the time. In an active killer event, suddenly, they don't own their building. Control's been transferred to law enforcement.

I always enjoy asking folks what the name of the school is. You said it. It's Crime Scene, and the name of the parking lot is Crime Scene. We aren't going to be reunifying our students with their parents in a crime scene.

Principals, they've gotten to that position by going through the educational administrative process, which gets to that king or queen of their domain. The good ones recognize fairly quickly, "Yep. This one's bigger than me."

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. It's funny. I can't help but remember you and I doing that training for my daughter's school. My daughter was in a private school. She has since graduated, and now off to college. But we did an early version of this class, when we were still prototyping it and working through it, for her private school.

I will never forget that conversation with the superintendent. We said, "Okay. We're going to do reunification." He goes, "Well, we're going to use this part of the campus." "No. You're not." "Okay. We're going to do an offsite reunification. We're going to use this church." "Okay. Have you called them? Do you have a plan?" "No. We'll do that."

John-Michael Keyes:

"Do you have a key?"

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. "Do you have a key?" Then it was, "How are we going to get them over there?" "Oh, we're going to get the buses." "What buses?" "Our buses." "Do you mean the buses in the parking lot? The buses in a crime scene?" He's like, "What's the problem? We'll just move them ..." "No."

Then, "Where are you going to get the staff?" "Well, I'm going to pull these teachers and these administrators." "You mean the ones that are on lockdown in your campus?"

All of a sudden, it was like he was so dejected a little bit, but it was important, because I think for the first time, he and a number of the other members of their team realized, "We've made an awful lot of assumptions about how this is going to go. It turns out, we've made a few incorrect assumptions."

John-Michael Keyes:

Humans really learn efficiently by making mistakes. That's one of the things in our training, we do try to talk about charters and privates, and really, really encourage fostering a relationship with the district that they're footprinted in.

Talk about a cantankerous response. They don't like that answer, but they come to a grim realization that this is one of those areas where that strong relationship with the surrounding district is going to be essential for a successful reunification. Fostering that relationship, I'm thinking that reunification is the vector that's going to allow those relationships to blossom.

Bill Godfrey:

Absolutely. You know what? To their credit, they took serious and quick action to change number of things. For example, the SRP, they implemented that a week later. They made policy decisions, and rolled out that training to all of the staff. They since have started this informal network amongst other private schools in the area that are going to work together to share those responsibilities.

I just love that the conversation didn't stop. They've carried it forward. They're continuing to do it. I'm sure you remember Mike Armstrong over there was working very hard with a lot of that stuff. Really, really proud of the work that they've done. So SSAVEIM.

John-Michael Keyes:

Bill, that's the sign of successful training. Successful training doesn't end when the course is over. It's just the first step in moving forward and advancing all of this stuff.

We've had great success from the foundation's perspective. Absolutely the Counterstrike methodology and SSAVEIM and ASIM result in, "Okay. Step one was to do this, but now there's a path ahead of us and some visibility into following the path." If that isn't the result of our training, then I don't think we've done our job well.

Bill Godfrey:

I completely agree with you there. To give people a sense of ... What I've described, those three modules, that's the morning. We break for lunch. When we come back from lunch, after lunch, it's all scenarios.

So for the rest of the afternoon, we just run scenarios from start to finish, rotating people through the different positions, giving different types of incidents, different types of scenarios and outcomes, so that people have some repetition to work through this, so that the things start to make sense. That light bulb goes on or that aha moment clicks.

By the end of the day, when we wrap up, they've laid their hands on three or four full exercises that they've run, functional exercises, where they've seen this process repeat and play out. It really makes sense to them.

John-Michael Keyes:

We leveraged one of the lessons that we learned when we started doing this. It was actually the briefings at Columbine, when we did our first functional exercise in reunification, and actually had the district bring a school bus so that we could transport our, quote, students around the parking lot from the impacted site to the reunification site.

We were doing it at a conference with 350 or 400 adults, so we had to simulate students and parents. We came up with a mechanism for that. Had an adoption ceremony.

One of the greatest critiques was that there's a lot of moving parts in this. None of it is complicated, but there's a lot of parts, and they're happening at distances sometimes. Folks wanted to see it a couple of times from a couple of different perspectives.

What we've done with SSAVEIM is allow that repetition and the ability to see it from different perspectives.

Bill Godfrey:

Absolutely, absolutely. I'll tell you, to take it a step further. The thing that was really exciting to me, as you and I were finalizing the curriculum and how we were going to do the delivery...

It is a one day, eight hour course. But after we got into some conversation, because it does take two instructors to do this, and obviously, there's some costs involved, we decided that what made more sense was to do this as a train the trainer, so that we don't just come out and do a single delivery. You can, but our real focus is on getting trainers out there, coming out and doing this as a train the trainer, getting your staff, your team up to speed, ready to continue on.

Because no matter how many people you have in the class, it's not everybody. Then you've got turnover. Just like the school has turnover from people retiring, or promoting up, or just leaving the workforce, it happens too on public safety. You go three to five years, and the guys in the field aren't the ones in the field anymore. They've promoted up. They're in charge of things, or they've moved on to other jobs, and you've got this retraining thing. So that being able to offer this as a train the trainer I just thought was critical.

John-Michael Keyes:

Absolutely. We've been talking public safety, and I had this niggling suspicion that there was a parallel universe out there. It turns out that public health is having some of the same conversations about reunification as public safety and education. The train-the-trainer model allows us to not only bridge turnover, but perhaps bridge the gap between public safety and public health.

Bill Godfrey:

Interesting. Interesting. Now, are you seeing that in several different states, or is there seem to be a center to it?

John-Michael Keyes:

I've seen ... Short answer is kind of, sorta kinda. I sat in a conference call with emergency managers, primarily emergency planners from the hospital perspective. There was an absolute need for a method, and they had no visibility into how to do it.

We also bumped into an interesting organization out of Arizona that has done some work in this, but again, they've been focused on the public health side, the hospital side of things, because hospitals face some of the same challenges in reunifying when there's a flood of people that come to the hospital, and managing that intake response when a large mass casualty event may occur.

Bill Godfrey:

Absolutely. That was actually one of the stories that came out of Pulse after the action report came out. That's a tongue twister. They did not make an attempt to manage reunification at the scene. A lot of reasons why. But they ended up having to manage reunification at the hospital. It wasn't necessarily purposeful or deliberate.

The hospital itself began to take on the responsibility of trying to do it, only, they really didn't have a plan for it. They, like you said, it was the Plan B, just wing it, and got through it. So I think that that's really an interesting thing.

I suspect if we talk to Brandon out in Vegas, to some degree, there was a component of that that went on with the hospitals out there in the 1 October attack.

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. Here's one of the things that I've noticed regionally. We've done training nationally across the country. East of the Mississippi, I am more likely to have some public health folks in foundation training than west of the Mississippi. The East Coast especially, and Northeast into Pennsylvania, I've done more trainings where there's a third of the audience that's coming from the public health side, because the hospitals want to know what's going on. They want to be able to support that mass casualty event. It was fascinating to me to make that observation, that there's a regional awareness to this that differs around the country.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. I think it just reminds us that no matter how far we make it, there's always more work to be done on this. Fascinating.

I don't want to leave the discussion, though, without talking about the other thing that I'm super excited about, which is not just that we did this as a joint course, or that it was jointly developed by both C3 and the “I Love U Guys” Foundation, but also we worked out a way for people to be able to get the course from either one of us. They can procure it directly from C3 or through the foundation, which opens a lot of opportunities, depending on where the funding's coming from.

In some cases, grant funding, with the work we do with Homeland Security, is a little bit easier to write up and document our direction. But you've got the ability to have a lot of donation funding that flows through towards the foundation's not-for-profit mission.

John-Michael Keyes:

Yeah. We've been able to offer all of our materials on the website at no cost. We don't even charge you an email address. Now, we'd love to hear from you, so it doesn't mean that you can't give us an email address, but it isn't necessary to get any of the materials.

But development and distribution of materials does cost money. Part of our sustainability model relies certainly on service revenues through training. But we also have a program that we call Partner With Love. You are a mission partner in our Partner With Love program. You're a mission partner that's contributed to the foundation both financially and, more importantly, intellectually. That joint development has totally transformed and advanced some of our programs.

But we have other mission partners that are strictly commercial. We feel very strongly that that partnership between commercial, nonprofit, government and community, nothing else comes even close to matching the power of that. So we've got the ability to perhaps find some funding, if resources are constrained, through the foundation to get SSAVEIM courses delivered.

Bill Godfrey:

That is such an exciting, exciting, exciting thing. I still continue to pursue our channels for securing some DHS funding. We're not really having much luck with that at the moment, but I'm never going to give up the faith, or never give up the fight. I think it's worth keeping it ever present. But in the meantime, it's important to get the material and the information out there, and continue to make a difference in both of our missions to save lives.

John-Michael Keyes:

There are clear next steps after an initial training session. That next step is a SSAVEIM course. The next step is let's do a hands-on exercise and move people around space. Just the traction that's happening, especially as we're coming out of our 18 months of isolation and silent weeping tears, that we want to get together in person, and do some of this type of training. There's a strong hunger for it.

Bill Godfrey:

I completely agree, completely agree. I'm excited to see where it goes. I'm excited to see where it goes.

John-Michael Keyes:

Bill, this has been a fascinating journey. I can't let us leave without one more acknowledgement. Reunification, if you think about, it is a deliberate process to move people through a space, with accountability and identification, to give them something. That would be just a heck of an acronym, okay?

But we learned this when school districts were going and starting to do the stay at home orders. They still had to deliver materials to students, or meals to students who were free and reduced lunch. It turns out that reunification, these methods could be used not only to get a student back with their parents, but a lunch back with their student when the school was closed down.

We developed the Standard Distribution Method. If I recall, the shutdown orders came March 13th in Colorado. We released beta one on the 25th, with video and operational guidance for that. Your contribution to the operational guidance, that product wouldn't exist without C3 Pathways and your efforts, and your team's efforts in assembling some of that stuff.

As a side note, one of our board members, Pat Hamilton is the chief operating officer at Adams 12 Five Star Schools. State of Colorado tapped him on the shoulder to do a mass vaccination site. He called me up and he said, "You know what? Public health is handling the actual jab, but we're in charge of moving the people around. It's kind of like a reunification. There's still an identification process, got to move people through the process." He was able to do reunifications with a fraction of the staff, using these methods, than the state was without them.

Bill Godfrey:

That's fantastic. I appreciate your very, very generous and gracious words there. It was absolutely our pleasure, and the pleasure of the team that worked on that effort for you, to be a part of it. We were honored that you called and asked, and we were honored to get it done.

If I remember correctly, that was a Friday night phone call. Because I seem to recall we worked that over the weekend, and had to deliver it to you by Saturday night or Sunday morning, if I'm remembering this right.

John-Michael Keyes:

Well, the shutdown orders came March 13. The first release, the video, the operational guidance, the graphics, all of this stuff, released the first version on March 25th. Mass guidance was on the horizon then. We saw the handwriting on the wall, so to speak, and we ran through beta two, new videos and new stuff, and mass guidance occurred officially from CDC on April 3rd. We were online April 5th for beta two.

So early phases of shutdown, and your team did a ton of work, certainly our team did a ton of work, in making that happen very quickly. It was really relevant at the time.

Bill Godfrey:

Yeah. It was good to be a part of it. Right in the beginning, there was a lot of, "What can we do? How can we help?" So it was exciting to us to have something to sink our teeth into.

Well, as always. John-Michael, I have immensely enjoyed this conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it's been a long week wrapping up the briefings, and I know you're tired, but once again, you bring a level of enthusiasm, and I'm just very, very appreciative and thankful for you and the time that you continue to commit to these causes.

John-Michael Keyes:

Bill, thank you. As always, we've been on the phone longer than we thought. I love talking. I love the relationship with C3 Pathways and then the personal relationship with both you and your team.

Bill Godfrey:

Well, absolutely, I appreciate it. I look forward to the next time we can get together face to face.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions about this podcast or any of the stuff that John-Michael or I talked about, please feel free to reach out to us. You can call the office, send us an email info@c3pathways.com.

Thank you for being with us. If you have not subscribed to the podcast, please do so. Thanks again to our producer, Karla Torres. John-Michael, take care. Everyone, stay safe.